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space marien kirjoitti:

aatami kirjoitti:Rupeaa jo vähän pelottamaan space marienin tuleva voittoputki, jos kaikki täällä lukemani on totta.

Ja minua alkaa hymyilyttää...

space marien kirjoitti:

aatami kirjoitti:Rupeaa jo vähän pelottamaan space marienin tuleva voittoputki, jos kaikki täällä lukemani on totta.

Ja minua alkaa hymyilyttää...

Saw lizardmen armybook today...some confirmations/corrections
Ok folks..

Scarborough Town Centre has the liz armybook for show/preview.

So here is some comfirmations/corrections:

There is an entire half page devoted to mixed units for us, as it states lizardmen are the main army that has a prevelance of this. It says when dealing with a mixed unit, count the spots taken up by the 'larger models/whatever term it used', asif they were the normal ranked models...so yes, krox and slann still count as full ranks.

* Saurus are 11 pts, not 10
* temple guard are 16, not 15
* saurus cav are the same as current, not cheaper

* it appears Tetto'eko CAN join units of temple guard OR skinks...the wording allows this as it says MAY join skinks instead of temple guard (this is big for me since i plan to buy 4 boxes of temple guard...20 for slann, 20 for tetto'eko whenever i may use him)

* I won't put the pt cost here, but TikTaqTo is VERY expensive...he is over 300 pts, just like Chakax..

* Yes, TikTaqto has a special rule that he CAN join terradon units as their 'squad leader' basically...heheh

* terradons still have hit & run but it's weaker now i think. it refers to a rule in the BRB called "feigned flieght or something' that is for fast cavalry. There may be some addendum to it but i didn't read the entire entry for it. I forgot to check about the rock thing

* salamanders work as follows: place the flame template at their mouth in a direction you wish that you have line of sight. Then roll the artillery dice andmove it forward that many inches. One you find it's position, treat it as a breathe weapon basically.

* razordons DO get 2 art. dice when stand and shoot but 1 otherwise

* engine of the gods does reduce casting cost by 1...NOT 3.

* skinks in howdaw of a stegadon get a 3+ AS. If i saw it correctly, ancient steg grants 2+.

Some stuff that annoyed me...

As people here know, the fact that we don't have our own lore pissed me off too no end..but that aside as i have accepted that...

* the 2nd or 3rd page..has a beautiful full page artwork of a liz army going to battle..in the pic, is a skink priest guy riding...a COATL!!! I immediately flipped to the back to check, hoping maybe this was kept a secret for this long...Sadly NO...they have the damn pic in one of the main artworks of the book, and they have a large passage talking aboout Coatls...but alas, even though it be fun, fluffy, and makes sense, we don't get it... *sigh*

* the cold one rider art sucks...it follows the art from our cold ones, so they have those stupid looking heads and hands..rest of the art is quite good for the most part

* mazdamundi has a 4+ ward, but no ward for the stegadon.
* kroak has a 3+ ward..he still has the -1 to hit, but he no longer turns magic weapons into mundane (DAMNIT!!! they really made him bite!) One good thing, his PD, get added to the free pool so anyone can use them.

* our item section bites.

Basically we have the same weapons as now, except that the blade of realities is 75 pts and can instant kill stuff if they fail a ld test (no saves, regen, etc are allowed)

Banners, i didn't get a good look as i had to leave due to the wife, but the skavenpelt banner is there (the one that was in the lustria book) but i forgot if its skink only. Overall, i did see the 100 pt banner (krygor one) but forgot to confirm what it does. may go back tomorrow to check hehe

Overall, from what I do remember glancing over it..nothing hit me as stuff i'd really want to use, so don't expect the cool type of banners vampires, warriors, dark elves, and daemons got.

we only have 3 talismans (the same 3 as now, but aura of quetzl now sucks as it's not a 4+ ward...sorry, but -1 to hit won't save our oldbloods from the type of stuff that they would need a talisman for anyways).

* enchanted items....nothing really new that i remember...i saw the rod of storms (bound uranon's), jaguar charm (bound steed), forgot the rest...but again..our item section is a big let down.

The art of the skink priest on the coatl makes me want to sculpt a coatl now for a GD entry..so i will prob do that and hope that in 8E, we get more stuff as all armies deserve.

Sanjay

Steg = 235
Ancient = 275
EotG = 255 i think if you subtract the skink priest cost

I forgot to check the BSB thing..but someone else told me that slann can still be a BSB, so I am hopeful.

Sanjay

My estimates in my spreadsheet that I have been updating with confirmed costs, states your army, with just 30 skinks will be about 100 pts over assuming the slann only has 50 pts of banner cost (a BSB and a cheap banner), and 100 pts of items and full upgrades.

You need 2 skink priests since you want one on a terradon and the eotg can only be taken if you have a priest on it I believe, so that adds more cost to the army.

Sanjay

Skinks/chameleons (forgot to check for krox/salamanders/razordons) are still aquatic.

the astromancer has a once/game ability that makes all heavens spells cast with IF for that turn on any doubles other than miscast.

Also, the reroll comet impacts is only if HE casts comet...not others in your army

Oh, kroak is immune to miscasts like current 6E slann.

Bored1 - my engine cost is just an estimate i got from someone else...i think reason is, engine can only be used with a skink priest....so it turns otut o be more expensive.

Sanjay

I believe the skirmisher with blowpipe is 2 pts more (so 7 pts each)...will check tomorrow if i go back.

Terradons do get the fast cav flee rule.

It's not a breath weapon...it acts more like a warpfire thrower.

The 100 point item that makes Cav within 12" stubborn is actually an enchanted item. StarFrye is correct, our magic items are not good (although the changed Blade of Realities is interesting...)

The Skavenpelt banner is still skinks only. And of course you can't give a magic banner to saurus or skinks.

Oh and my favourite, you can make a skink chief your BSB.

After I read through the book I found I would need to redo my army a lot but overall it looks like a well done book. One thing struck me though, the new Blade of Realities seems to be the first 75pts magic weapon I would consider to be 'worth it'. The ability to ignore all saves including regeration and ward plus the chance for an auto kill before rolling to wound seems to be great. Consider it will be on a four attack Str 5 character it won't be too hard to wound either.

Oh and yes the EoG only makes the lore a -1 to cast. Skinks are 7pts now and 5pts when stuck with Kroxigor.

even with the casting nerf, the steggies are brilliant. For 275 points + a priest you get a giant, high save and toughness, many wound, stubborn, cold blooded, terror causing, power and dispel dice generating (if you put a level 2 skink priest on it, he counts as 1 level higher, which means another dispel die). monster. and that's BEFORE you get to the engine abilities, to whit

-5+ ward save against shooty armies like WE, DE, empire and co, meaning your saurus are going to be DEAD hard.
-AOE slapdown is going to mean some serious area denial vs daemons and undead armies (which, given VC, TK, daemons and forest spirit heavy WE are THE most competitive armies around, isn't a tall order in tournament play). This goes double when your slaan takes lore of light and can use the skink priest on top as a focus for cleansing flare (giggles insanely)
-when going against an army out of range of the flare without much shooting- slaughtermaster armies, you use the casting bomb to power up some slaughter.

This is one big gribbly I think you'll see in pretty much every army, be it engine of the gods or standard.

Palanquin has a paragraph as well.

Basically, it works as current. Line of sight is treated AS IF the slann is large, so he can see over stuff and target stuff wherever. He can still cast as he does now, but IF he is in the first rank and in combat, then he can only cast non magic missiles (as cc blocks direct line of sight for magic missiles).

Tekko'eto 's palanquin gives a 5+ ward save, and works the same way as a slann's BUT it also allows him to join units of skinks if you want. I think he'd be safer with temple guard myself but TG are very expensive.

Slann can only cast magic missiles through skinks. I saw that today...

Sanjay

the palanquin is just as now..in all respects.

In cc, you can't get line of sight beyond combat so spells that need los you can;t use. ie,. you can cast comet while in CC since it has no LOS requirement.

Sanjay

IIRC salamanders and razordons are the same cost being 10pts more than the current version.

The EoG is a great addition to a close combat army with the 5+ ward save and making the skink generate dice like a level 3 wizard (if level 2 is paid for) will be a nice bonus in smaller games

Razordons DO get 2 art. dice when stand and shoot but 1 otherwise, so its work like the dwarf organ cannon , or they must roll bs? And , if i may ask, what about the range ?
Thanks

Except an Organ Gun can't stand an shoot.

It is str 7 and not a large target but its still WS3. I like the carnosaur

D3 wounds on everything can be good IF he hits

Sanjay

How many Salamanders and Razordons can you take as one special/rare choice?

3 per choice, i believe both are rares.

For those of you decrying the tournament status of lizzies, I have to say, you'll find you're probably wrong. On a pure PURE system they're not quite as abuseable as daemons and vampires, but seriously, lizzies have ALWAYS been a strong, competitive list- and I'm not just talking skinks and second gen, there are lizardmen lists down here that consistently place top 10 and sometimes podium using balanced lists.

A lizardman list HIGHLY rewards good generalship. You can rely on your troops to go where you want them to go, stay where you want them to stay and (most of the time) kill what you want them to kill. Infantry are far more reliable than other armies as 1) they're cheaper and tougher than other elite inf (significantly now with the EOTG bubble), they have cold blooded (which will be just as good with a slaan BSB camping behind them), they can now cause some serious punishment on the defensive even against cavalry. (especially if said cav fluff their attacks). Also, unlike high elves and warriors of chaos lizzies have access to a plethora of cheap and powerful baiting, harrying and sacrificial units, allowing you to draw enemy onto your powerful infantry blocks. Here are some fancy new tactics to think about


- ranked skinkscreen
in front of your saurus and slaan (pref with an engine of the gods) deploy a large unit of ranked skinks in a single line. run them 12 inches forward, and the rest of the line 1" forward. enemy charging the skink line will get hit by 16 odd javelins, have to break the skinks on ld9 coldblood with a re-roll, and even if they manage that, the skinks will 9 times out of ten not reach your own lines and cause panic, and that will leave the enemy directly in front of your crush line to be charged by saurus and/or steggies. Not only this but
- your steggy can draw LOS over the top thus your slaan can still cast his magic missiles,
- the skinks block LOS to your slaan and saurus, protecting them against missiles.
- this screen costs a mere 80 points and deployed in 1 rank can cover almost your entire battle line.
- even if cav like chaos knights obliterate your skinks and overrun into your saurus, it's now your turn, allowing you to throw a stegadon or saurus unit into the flank OR pop your engine of the gods, crippling the unit with no armor save hits.

use MSU terradons to cripple enemy fast cav
3 terradons will probably easily be able to hide from enemy fire and consequently attack enemy fast cavalry (or even flyers) 3d3 strength 4 hits on most flanker units will be enough to cripple them or force leadership tests, leaving your now-us-2 flyers to get flank or rear bonuses on important combats or eat war machines. if not, terradons are quite capable of finishing the unit off in close combat.

Rank and flank
again using ranked skinks, this time as smaller units of 10-12 to guard flanks of saurus and then use their M6 to flank units of static inf that go in. the removal of 3 ranks and addition of a flank, against big blocks of static infantry will be lethal. Also good for providing a buffer against fast cav and taking wounds off flyers.

tagteam stegadons
Run a team of two stegadons, slighty staggered, near your slaan. the bolt throwers can snipe at cavalry or monsters (particularly the latter) until you double-charge something, very likely breaking it. Durable, reliable, flexible and comparatively cheap

temple guard force
run 4 units of temple guard, filling core selections with skinks. Temple guard are point-for-point the best elite infantry in the game, IMHO. support them with the engine of the gods and a BSB slaan and you've got a rock hard army that WILL get across the table and do some damage, unlike chaos mortals.

EOTG caddy
a level 2 skink priest on an engine of the gods with a couple of scrolls gives you 4 dispel dice and 2 scrolls, as well as big buffs for a combat army and a viable countercharge unit. a better caddy than any other army, more or less.



What do I think will be the standard list variations?

oddly, number one I think will be a very balanced list with skinks, saurus, steggies, probably a slaan. A good mix of all options, something that's been sadly lacking in the one-trick-hammer armies of the last three books.

skirmisher and terradon heavy armies supported by 3-4 stegadons will probably get a look in, since, especially if the terradon character makes it in.

Combat heavy armies will probably go with an oldblood on carnosaur, with lots of stegadons and temple guard, again, rock hard, every expensive unit being coldblooded and stubborn (or insanely killy), you literally have to kill every (very tough) model to get your points. Even daemons and warriors of chaos will have trouble doing that.

All three of these armies I think will be very competitive. Obviously, some will have trouble against specific armies, but the funny thing is it won't be against daemons, vampires or chaos mortals (and probably wood elves) against all three of these armies, lizardmen have the tools to remain highly competitive. the lists you may have trouble against are tomb kings (the movement spells will probably get rid of your bait units cheaply), dwarfs (shooty units too tough to get rid of with skinks or other sacrificial units, strong antimagic and combat blocks as durable as yours, but less pricey) and absolute combat monster armies played by exceptionally good players. So long as you learn how to play your opponent correctly, you will be able to win with lizardmen against any list

Ok so I've gotten one quick glance at this book, and one LONG look at the Toronto GW.

@ athamas - will this be possible? [to have ~5 stegadons?]
From what I saw ancient stegs are upgrades for priests, a normal one is a special choice and an ancient is a rare (that's a lot of slots, you'll run out of points before you do slots)

@ bored1 - yes and yes

@ Dux Ducis - 8 skinks per krox, so 16 skinks gets you 2 kroxigors, +3 rank bonus, and the unit gets full command for another 20 points a 210 point unit all together.

@ StarFyreXXX - Itxi grubs are arcane one use items that give you +3 to cast a spell

@ someone2040 - The lance is skink chief only. The cobra staff if i remember right when it either hits or wounds destroys one magical item the unit/character is wearing.

Any more questions?

Oh and Canosaur is no longer a large target, and neither is the slann

Correction for the Cobra Mace:

Mazdamundi has 1 attack. Cobra mace and makes him always strike first, and gives 1 str 5 poisonous attack. If it hits, destroy 1 magical weapon in the target unit/model if they have any. Mazdamundi player gets to choose.


I did a challenge test between archaon and mazdamundi..and archaon won 6 times out of 9. pretty much, if archaon went after the stegadon...he won always. if he went after mazdamundi..maz had a chance since if he rolled a 6 to hit, broke the arch's sword, then maz has a decent chance to live and once i even broke him (maz would outnumber and has a banner)..hehe

At local store, couple people will be using archaon in their armies, and since the oldblood build i used to kill archaon a couple times before wont work in 7E, i need a new plan.
I'm thinking mazdamundi army, where maz takes lore of metal... not sure yet. not a great chance, but better than nothing.

No shortbow option...Also, the grubs can be bought by anyone.
jaguar charm is a bound item, so not one use from what i remember.
No items grant a +1 PD.

@ Dokushin -sorry don't remember any more on the grubs, they didn't impress me so i just glanced at them

LoS from priest, range from slann if i remember right

yup 1-4 steg 5-6 skinks (but i want to double check how heroes work since they now just replace one crew, not all of them)

One of the slanns thingies (the 1-4 option things) is he gets a free die to cast and dispell each attempt

Jag is bound spell at Power Lvl 5 (so nerfed but not horrible)

no armour on krox that i saw, but i wasn't looking for it

@ rodmillard - sorry no short bows that i saw, just blowpipes and playing +1 point to get jav and shield

@ Lotl Botl - spears are just 1 point, so a saurus with spear is now the same point as a normal saurus in this book, but he's also got 5+ scally skin
nope same points for both
only one way no sadly, lets you save 2 power dice for dispel (and here i thought it would be an auto include for the slann)

Maz and kroak have no disciplines

Mazdamundi

* maz has a 4+ ward
*No ward save for the steg.
*Mazamundi has the ruination of cities spell. (13+, 2d6 str 5 i think hits to 1 unit)range 18
*There is no limit to the amt of dice he can use to cast a spell
*He has the cobra mace which lets him always strike first with one strength 5 poisoned attack. If you hit with your attack, and your target has magic weapons, you get to choose one that is instantly destroyed
*He is a bsb
*Stegadon Zlaaq has a 2+ scaly skin, and gives maza a 2+ armour save
*If you kill Zlaaq, maza reverts to using his palanquin

lord kroak

* 3+ Ward save
* If he rolls a miscast, the spell fails and there is no need to roll on miscast table
* He is a level 4 but his dice are added to the pool
* If he joins temple guard, they become unbreakable
* Has a talisman that makes all shooting and close combat attacks -1 to hit
*He is flammable

----

I am very sad with what they did with maz and kroak. really they deserve to be better and be in the 700-800 pt range..

Sanjay

@ someone2040 - Mazz is on an very ancient steg which as a 2+ save, and mazz gets a 2+ save from the howdah (i'm 90% sure I got that right, falling that its 3+). No disciplines that i saw. He's a BSB, i don't remember if it did anything else. Doesn't make anyone else core. Only one who does that is the oldblood on carni makes ONE unit of cold ones count as core.

Yes, the best slann suck. What I find is that the lizardmen SC lords suck, but the SC heroes are awesome but very high costs (for heroes...even more than the daemon and Warriors of chaos heroes).

Maz i think has choose 1 lore...forgot to confirm.

Sanjay

Played 2 games against the new Lizardmen at the Toronto bunker. I won both games with my play-for-fun Dwarfs. They were both fairly bad matchups for the lizzies.

After those games and and a fairly long look at the book, I'm pleased with the list.

It will not be an excellent tournament army. It's not broken enough. The gist of the changes is that the magic items get nerfed (unless something new comes up) and the basic troops get a bit of a boost.

There may be a few power combos I missed, but it doesn't look to be good enough for the tournament scene. For example, the Diadem of Power only stores power dice, so you can only ever get bonus dispel dice out of it. The Nike Totem is now a bound Steed of Shadows. The wings are skink only, just to be clear. I couldn't find anything really broken. Handy, yes, but not broken.

Oldbloods and Scar-Veterans are still dynamite (moreso in terms of the base statline). I expect to see them mounted on Cold Ones, hanging out in Skink/Kroxigor units.

There are no shortbow options in the list. At all. I'm just as disappointed as you are.

You can fit 7 stegadons in 2000pts. 4 normal steggies, 2 ancients, a naked priest with engine of the gods, and 3 units of 10 skinks (not skirmishers) will just barely squeek in. Not a spectacular army, but 7 steggies.

Terradons can't fight any more. 4 of them struggled against 10 Quarrelers who didn't have ranks. The do drop rocks, though. At the cheaper price, I'd like to see some large units dropping 10D3 S4 hits. Lots of Terradons flitting around gibbing big units is really my greatest concern with the list right now. The Lizard Air Force may not pan out, but it has me nervous.

I'm also a little concerned about Skink/Kroxigor units elbowing Saurus out of lists.

Watch out for some FAQ attention on the following topics:
Poisoned bolt throwers (do you roll to wound the second rank, or does a poison hit insta-gib a full file of troops?).
Can the Slaan be picked out from his unit? There's a grammatical error in the sentence, so I'm leery of letting them have their cake and eat it too.
You can destroy the Horned One with Vaul's Unmaking. It's fairly clear, but absurd.
The Engine of the Gods' radius blast isn't magical.

Oh good..we had the worst item selecetion of all armies, and our bests items WERE NOT OVERPOWERFUL. The jaguar charm, and huanchi totem didn't make us win tournaments or anything. The jaguar charm change now isn't a big deal but the huanchi change is just a useless change. They probably did it since some people whined too much and the designer listened for no reason.

The horned one is retarded...just retarded. COnsidering our item selection is still very poor compared to all the other 7E armies, it's very sad.

They really should have given another flying mount like the coatl for one...espec since it's in the art.

Elves have pegasus, griffon, dragon i believe? vamps have undead dragon and now they added abyssal terror. Daemons don't really need mounts since their lords mainly fly anyways, and chaos has a bunch of mount options.

The slann can't be picked out with shooting since he's not a large target. In terms of casting, treat him like he's large for what he can see, but he isn't large and hass no large penalties as such.

Sanjay

Terradons = 30 pts if i remember
Cold one cav = same as now...35
swarms = 45 pts (great artwork though btw!!!)

armour = nothing really good..if you want something cool like obsidian armour...uhm..no

Bane head and Blood Statuette i believe are still there. Didn't see Gleaming chotec thing...

Regards,

Sanjay

Einholt - Blade of Realities

YOu roll to hit. For each HIT (ie. before wounds....just pure HITS), the enemy takes a leadership test. If they fail any of the tests, they die. no saves, wards, regeneration, etc allowed. So yes, you technically could kill a blood thirster, or archaon, or an elf lord with it...but probability is low due to their high leadership scores.

Against tough lords with LDs 8 or lower though, it can be devastating. against mounts..it IS devastating, since it appears to only work against the LD of the model, NOT the general's radius or rider, etc.

BTW - Tzunki blade is still there for same pts as now. Ignore AS, +1 str.

Sanjay

skink priest 65, 100 for level 2
chief is 55 .

both can take 50 pts of items.

Sanjay

Nope, only Tetto'eko can join ranked skinks. This though, assumes no Krox are in the unit.

Sanjay

I Ride in a Dragon kirjoitti:Aina ne on ennenkin voitettu eikä mikään kyllä muutu nytkään :) Keihästä vaan levyyn niin kauan että sininahat taipuvat.

Morhgoz kirjoitti:

I Ride in a Dragon kirjoitti:Aina ne on ennenkin voitettu eikä mikään kyllä muutu nytkään :) Keihästä vaan levyyn niin kauan että sininahat taipuvat.

Minä kyllä ottaisin keihässaurus blokilla keihäshaltiat vastaan koska vaan... Keihäshaltioiden ei edes kannata haaveilla hyökkäyksestä saurusten niskaan, kiitos hyvän T:n, vähintää 4+ panssarin ja hirmuisen määrän S 4 iskujen takia, uudessa kirjassa kun ei ole enää Predatory fighters sääntöä, joten keihäs saurukset jakelevat 2 iskua kahdesta rankista...

Morhgoz kirjoitti:

I Ride in a Dragon kirjoitti:Aina ne on ennenkin voitettu eikä mikään kyllä muutu nytkään :) Keihästä vaan levyyn niin kauan että sininahat taipuvat.

Minä kyllä ottaisin keihässaurus blokilla keihäshaltiat vastaan koska vaan... Keihäshaltioiden ei edes kannata haaveilla hyökkäyksestä saurusten niskaan, kiitos hyvän T:n, vähintää 4+ panssarin ja hirmuisen määrän S 4 iskujen takia, uudessa kirjassa kun ei ole enää Predatory fighters sääntöä, joten keihäs saurukset jakelevat 2 iskua kahdesta rankista...

As a note, something i never mentioned. The painting section, where it shows the models.

Some comments:

* it does NOT show conversion models (ie. so no mazdamundi, tekko'eto, etc)
* it does show the rest
* the new scar vet standard looks awesome IMHO although i have no idea how he holds up that damn thing
* i can't believe what they did for tetto'eko's art. for those waiting to do a conversion based on how he looks in the art, the pic won't help. They have him on his palanquin, at the top of a pyramid, calling down the heavens BUT there is a giant beam of light from the gods coming down on him. Due to the way they drew it, you can't actually see him. it's just a beam of light hitting a pyramid, with a slight image of him. So if you were waiting, you might as well think of what you want to do. there is no pure image of him that i could find. will check again to confirm.

ALso, Gor-ROk, as was mentioned before..his shield makes him as if he is defending an obstacle. enemies need to re-roll wounds. He also is immune to Killing Blow. not sure if that was mentioned.

Regards,

Sanjay

jupu_mies kirjoitti:Milloin tämä kirja siis tulee en jaksa selata koko topikkia.

jupu_mies kirjoitti:Milloin tämä kirja siis tulee en jaksa selata koko topikkia.

The huanchi banner is 1 use only..so you get +1d6 onto 1 charge.

Sanjay