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[WMA] Roman vs Britons, Englantia

Lähetetty: To 21.05.2009 18:23
Kirjoittaja tneva82
So small 1500 points practise game with warmaster ancients. I chose the might of the early Roman empire while opponent had the Barbarians of Britain under him.

Roman army:

general 125
2xlegate 2x80
6xlegion 6x80
8xauxilaries 8x45
4xarchers 4x40
2xheavy cavalry 2x80
scorpion 50

total: 1495
21 units, breakpoint 11

1500 pts celt army

general 100
warlord w/charriot 70
warlord w/charriot 70
2xchieftain 2x30
16xwarriors 16x35
1xfanatics 50
7xskirmishers 7x30
1xcavalry 1x60
4xcharriot 4x80
total: 1500
29 units, breakpoint 11(since skirmishers don't count here)

Deployment:

Briton side. From left to right

4xcharriotm skirmisher+3xwarrior(wb1), general, 2xskirmisher+2xwarrior(wb2) behind hill, warlord, skirmisher+fanatic+2xwarrior(wb3) behind hill, cavalry, chieftain, 2xskirmisher+2xwarrior(wb4) behind forrest, warlord, skirmisher+3xwarrior(wb5), chieftain, 4xwarrior(wb6).

Roman side. From left to right

Heavy cavalry, 3xarchers behind heavy cavalry, legate, 2xlegion+2xauxiliaries(lg1), archer+scorpion slightly behind infantry, general, 2xlegion+2xauxiliaries(lg2), 2xauxiliaries behind previous formation, legate, 2xlegion+2xauxiliaries(lg3)

There was hill on middle-left, top-right from that another hill, bottom-right from first hill a forrest, forrest close to briton deployment on right and hill near romans center-right.

As Briton deployed first they got first turn. 8 turn game in total. All directions stated from Roman point of view.

Briton #1:

On right the chieftain ordered warband 6 twice ahead with warband 5 moving once in support. Warlord on same flank had similar success and moved warband 4 twice forward. They entered the forrest. Second chieftain moved cavalry once ahead and then warband 3 as well. Warlord moved warband 2 forward but general then promptly failed moving warband #1 forward. Overall decent turn for Britons.

Roman #1:

Heavy cavalry moved forward once but the second order was botched. On the right Legion 3 moved forward twice as did legion 2. Legion 1 moved forward twice by orders from general and scorpions moved twice ahead as well but attempt to move reserve auxiliaries failed. Excelent turn. Right flank was in good position and only archers were left behind.

Briton #2:

Warband 6 moved forward twice again approaching pretty close to roman line(though not within initiave range). Warband 5 followed once but then enthusiasism stopped. Warband 4 had no such qualms and moved forward leaving the forrest with cavalry following them. Warband 3 moved slightly forward. With warband 2 staying where they stood and warband 1 moving forward just once briton infantry was starting to get stretched out a bit. Charriots however moved forward once moving between the two hills.

Roman #2:

Legate on right blundered and legionaries moved just slightly ahead, the courage required to advance fast faltering upon seeing the briton horde bearing down on them. Legate on the left moved heavy cavalry behind hill hidden from the charriots. Archers were brought slightly forward as well but Roman disclipine failed as they failed to move further. General moved one legionary horde to the edge of the hill taking up defensive positions against upcoming Briton horde with second legionary horde taking position to their flank. Scorpions followed behind and fired upon the swarm of infantry but aim was off and nothing was done. Auxiliary reserve started to redeploy toward left flank. Romans stood ready. Soon the slaughter would begin.

Briton #3:

On right the warband 6 charged on initiave against the legionaries. Warband 5 refused to move. Warband 4 moved and split up on second order with the warriors charging against the legionaries not on the hill while skirmishers stood guarding the flank. Cavalry joined the combat in center by charging another legionary unit. Warband 3 moved around the hill and even warband 2 moved ahead but generals attempt to move charriots failed utterly. Leaving warband 1 behind as well. Briton army was starting to become bit too scattered for their preference. Skirmishers on the center drove both legionary units behind and forcing scorpions to give way as well getting them off the hill.

On right the warband charged wildly into the massed ranks of roman legionaries but were driven off with heavy casualties losing badly. One unit of legionaries was vary to pursuit due to the initial casualties but the second pursuitted the warband slaughtering it totally but after all was told it had lost two stands as well. On the center combat was bit more even. Though warband was driven off confusing the warband behind it in the process it wasn't utterly destroyed and took out two legionary stands as well. Cavalry charge succeeded in taking out stand of legionaries without casualties before being driven off by the steely determination of roman legions.

Units lost:

Briton 1/11
Roman 0/11

Roman #3:

On the right legionaries let out mighty warcry as they charged toward retreating briton warriors. Legionaries that had driven off the cavalry renewed attack alongside infantry against remnants of briton warband. Scorpion and archer moved back to hill facing the skirmisher line. Heavy cavalry failed to move as they found themselves to be within 20cm of the briton charriots(but due to hill unable to charge on initiave). Archers moved toward the center with help of general.

As skirmishers evaded from the roman shooting they didn't suffer in way of casualties. On the right combat however proved to be more decisive as 2 warbands were routed off. However romans lost several stands across units as well during the heavy combat. On the center warbands were driven off with heavy casualties and cavalry retreated lost third of their numbers. Seeing the mass of briton nearby romans fell back forming new battle line with the reserve auxiliaries.

Units lost:

Briton 3/11
Roman 0/11

Briton #4:

Warband and skirmishers on the right evaded backwards. Cavalry evaded backwards as well with warriors making way without issues. Fanatics charged ahead against depleted auxiliary and legion unit. On the right warband moved forward twice forming up new battleline to face the briton and ready to charge until chieftain blundered. Rather than charging they retreated backwards until they hit the evading warriors. On the right warbands got their act together and moved to reinforce briton line but general failed utterly moving the charriots forward.

In combat the fanatics and warband slaughtered legion and auxiliary unit hitting another damaged legion unit in the pursuit causing heavy casualties to it as well. However all fanatics were slaughtered in return and the warband driven off.

Units lost:

Briton 3/11
Roman 2/11

Roman #4:

Intact auxiliary unit initiave charged the lone warband stand in the center while the only surviving legionary stand evaded backwards. No other initiave moves. On left legate failed to move cavalry again and on right legate failed first order as well. Getting desperate the general ordered legions to charge skirmishers who evaded. Attempt to continue charge toward warband ahead was then failed. Not good. Shooting proved to be ineffective and combat in center ended in stalemate as well.

Briton #5:

On right fresh warband horde charged toward auxiliary/legion line. Skirmishers(3 units) surrounded another legion unit preparing to pepper them with arrows. On the center reserve auxiliaries got horde of briton warriors against them. Warlord and general however failed to move another warband and charriots...

Skirmishers drove legionaries a bit confusing unit of auxiliaries in the process. On the center charge went less than stellar though as briton side lost two warbands and had another badly mauled in return of badly mauled auxiliary unit. On right disaster struct for romans though as 2 legion units and auxiliary were lost under horde of briton warriors who lost only one warband in return. Auxiliares who were charged to the flank lost one of the two remaining stands and had to retreat.

Units lost:

Briton 6/11
Roman 5/11

Roman #5:

Fresh legion on the center-right charged warband that had been involved in the roman slaughter. They were supported by auxiliaries. Meanwhile on left total disaster struct as legate blundered with the heavy cavalry. One unit charged fresh infantry on the hill(uh oh) while second was obliged to charge skirmishers on the center who evaded and left heavy cavalry looking rather stupid with horde of charriots looking at their flank...Oops! This is definetly NOT good...

With roman army facing total disaster general started quick reorganisation. Scorpion+archer unit was wheeled around facing upcoming horde. Archers were moved alongside them with auxiliary reserve moving alongside them giving romans powerful shooting line and pulling distance between them and the britons. Another legion+auxiliary pair surrounded by skirmishers failed to move however. Shooting drove one skirmisher unit on right backwards a bit while on left skirmishers ran into the heavy cavalry becoming confused.

On combat the roman infantry made short work of two warbands without casualties of their own. Cavalry charge against fresh infantry on hill ended predictably in quick retreat having lost stand without any casualties against the warband.

Units lost:

Briton 8/11
Roman 5/11

Briton #6:

Briton army let out mighty warcry as they charged ahead sensing victory to be in their grasp! 2 Charriot unit slammed into the heavy cavalry in center with initiave(and third joined later with orders). Charriot unit + warband charged second heavy cavalry unit with initiave. Orders failed to bring reinforcements there. On the center warbands and skirmishers and cavalry slammed into long line of roman shooting power. Stand and shoot caused 5 hits in total knocking out stand before combat even began. On the right britons retreated in good order from the roman legionaries. And characters joined combats this time. General joined charriots fighting against heavy cavalry surrounded on all but one side while warlord joined charriots fighting second heavy cavalry unit. Even chieftain joined skirmishers fighting the scorpions.

On center archer line fought like hell causing serious damage to the briton horde but scorpions and two units of archers were lost under the avalanche. Cavalry fell back after the charge. One warband lost in the whole process 2 stands. Legionaries on right now had skirmishers at their front, left and rear. On the left heavy cavalry were wiped out to a man with warlord led charge for loss of charriot stand. Unsuprisingly second heavy cavalry unit was lost as well. Roman army stood within one unit from breaking with 2 more briton turn to face.

Units lost:

Briton 8/11
Roman 10/11

Roman #6:

Not much to do. Legate on right ordered string of succesful charges forcing two skirmisher units to evade and clearing the room for legionary unit to charge warband in the flank wiping them to a man. On center I moved stand of legionaries to better safety. Archers took out cavalry stand and drove them off.

Units lost:

Briton 9/11
Roman 10/11

Briton #6:

Begining of an end. Briton army was pretty scattered so couldn't do much(if only I had something to attack with and time to attack!) but general got no less than 3 units of charriots charging into the auxiliary infantry. One of them in flank... As all 3 units got characters joining them(general and both warlords in charriots...) this gave them ridiculous 30 attacks against one auxiliary unit(plus another 3 to second unit). 16 hits scored and with 6+ save obviously didn't succeed in 7 of them. One unit wiped out which was enough to break roman army but for good measure charriots wiped the second unit as well. Victory for Britons!

Units lost:

Briton 9/11
Roman 12/11

Casualties:

Britons:

fanatic
8xwarband
2 crippled warband
crippled cavalry

Romans:

3xlegion
1xcrippled legion
2xcrippled auxiliary
scorpion
2xheavy cavalry
2xarcher
4xauxiliary

vp's

Britons: 840
Romans: 400

So all in all total slaughter. Roman advance into Briton territory got halted. So where did it go all hairy? Briton turn 5 was beginning of an end really as I lost 2 units of legionaries. These are very, very, very valuable infantry and the less legionary stands I had the worse I was doing. Roman turn 5 was then total disaster. I was trying to get cavalry OUT of the harms way as repeated command failures had left them in rather risky position. Then the stupid legate blundered and cavalry charged happily into middle of Briton army without any kind of support. Finally the bloody charge against archer line. Odds were against him getting that much stuff into combat needing 2 orders for both units(for infantry -2 modifier for second order...) but unfortunatly he got them and caused horrible slaughter among my poor archers.

In the end I had literally no hitting power left as remaining legionaries were surrounded by those tripple cursed skirmishers stalling their advance totally. Though they caused hefty casualties there they were now facing slippery foes who wouldn't even count toward break point! Curses! Indeed this was the reason why loss of cavalry hurt so much as left side was left without heavy hitting power who were all on right stalled by skirmishers. On turn 5 I shouldn't have charged toward right but moved toward left but who would have expected that blunder? Curses!

Re: [WMA] Roman vs Britons, Englantia

Lähetetty: To 21.05.2009 19:53
Kirjoittaja ile
Hi,

This sounds interesting. I've only ever fought & followed battles using the DBM system. How does it differ from Warmaster? (I think I recognized some methods similar to DBM.)

A couple of questions to the analysis of the outcome:

1. The Celts had a supremacy in unit numbers, and those skirmishers that so slowed you down. Would you think the unit numbers played a role in the outcome?

2. Considering the rules, what do you think is the role of luck in Warmaster? As a quick comparison to WH, it seems Warmaster (and DBM) have more tactical limits (e.g. orders to move units). This, I believe, enhances the importance of tactical thinking. What's your opinion?

Why English on a Finnish forum?

Cheers,
-ile

Re: [WMA] Roman vs Britons, Englantia

Lähetetty: To 21.05.2009 20:15
Kirjoittaja tneva82
ile kirjoitti:Hi,

This sounds interesting. I've only ever fought & followed battles using the DBM system. How does it differ from Warmaster? (I think I recognized some methods similar to DBM.)
Since I don't have a glue about DBM I cannot compare the two. You can get pretty good idea about warmaster ancient by downloading free warmaster rules from GW's web page however. Though there are some differences(in WMA max 3 orders per turn, cavalry based 40mm wide without shock special rule and if after 2 rounds of combat combatants are still in contact combat continues next turn for example) it still gives pretty solid indication regarding the rules.
1. The Celts had a supremacy in unit numbers, and those skirmishers that so slowed you down. Would you think the unit numbers played a role in the outcome?
Not neccessarily. While they had lots of units legionares were slaughtering them in droves. Probably the killer was deploying 2 full brigades on my right flank. I thought to use refused flank and sweep from there. What I DIDN'T keep in mind was that a) legionares while being tough as nails aren't silver helms led by dragon mounted hero! and b) those skirmishers would be major pain in the ass! End result. Grand sweep didn't happen and left side was depleted by heavy strike power due to those triple darned fanatics(5 attacks on the charge! And when they won combat next round they got SIX attack per stand. Bloody warband pursuit bonus) and the cursed blunder on legate. Bloody hell. Cavalry had infantry 21cm away on hill so couldn't use initiave and had charriots 19cm away over the hill so got -1 to command. No initiave and command rolls failed constantly. End result was cavalry that got stuck.
2. Considering the rules, what do you think is the role of luck in Warmaster? As a quick comparison to WH, it seems Warmaster (and DBM) have more tactical limits (e.g. orders to move units). This, I believe, enhances the importance of tactical thinking. What's your opinion?
Luck does have it's role. In here I had turn where I botched commands on flanks giving me pretty lousy turn. And the heavy cavalry got lost on that blunder. However atleast in this game they merely compounded tactical mistakes I made(overloading right flank for example. One brigade+reserve auxiliaries should have taken care of right flank leaving 2 brigades of infantry to center and left). I lost because I screwed up.
Why English on a Finnish forum?

Cheers,
-ile
I'm more comfortable writing battle reports in English than in Finnish(or Finglish which would be more appropriate term for that mix of finnish and english terms that would be the result).

Re: [WMA] Roman vs Britons, Englantia

Lähetetty: Ma 25.05.2009 18:27
Kirjoittaja Silveri
Mites yleisesti ottaen WMA tuntui verrattuna esim WMF:ään? Hankin sen ekan armeijani "Kohta" eli toivottavasti Ropeconiin mennessä. WMAA:ssahan on jonkin verran sääntöerrataa mukana (vastaavat tekstit on myös Medieval Armiesissa), muistaakseni osittain noista warband-säännöistä.

Suurin kysymysmerkki omalta osaltani on vain skaala - hienoa 10 mm:ia saa runsaasti, 6 mm suhteen valikoimaa on vähemmän ja hinta ainakin aloituspakettien suhteen on huomattavasti suurempi Baccuksella verrattuna esim Pendrakenin 10 mm:siin. Sitäpaitsi vaikka WMMA on pistehinnassa skaalattu siten, että pelit onnistuvat muinaisiakin vastaan, muinaispuolella taitaa olla enemmän vastustajia. Jotenkin tuntuisi typerältä, jos tuleva samuraiarmeijani mättäisi vain antiikin roomalaisia tai galleja vastaan...

Re: [WMA] Roman vs Britons, Englantia

Lähetetty: La 11.07.2009 00:17
Kirjoittaja tneva82
Silveri kirjoitti:Mites yleisesti ottaen WMA tuntui verrattuna esim WMF:ään? Hankin sen ekan armeijani "Kohta" eli toivottavasti Ropeconiin mennessä. WMAA:ssahan on jonkin verran sääntöerrataa mukana (vastaavat tekstit on myös Medieval Armiesissa), muistaakseni osittain noista warband-säännöistä.
Hitto miten mie tämän onnistuin missaamaan. Noh parempi myöhään kuin ei milloinkaan?

Jokatapauksessa WMA mielestäni parantaa WMF:ää selvästi. Ratsuväen dominointia on vähennetty reippaasti. WMF:ssä ratsuväellä tuppasi olemaa:

a) 4+ save
b) kapea basetus
c) terroria aiheuttava kapistus johtamassa(hero dragonilla yms)
d) ei juurikaan rajoituksia lukumäärässä

WMA:ssa on noiden yhteen saaminen todella työn ja tuskan takana. Kohta c) on melkolailla "forget it"(joillain taisi olla sankareita joille sai elefantit mutta noiden ratsuväki ei taas ole niin kovaa) ja jos nuo kolme muuta on niin hinta tuppaa olemaan jalkaväkeen nähden WMF:ään verrattuna selvästi isompi. Lisäksi niillä sitten myös yleensä sääntö joka antaa ylimmääräisen -1 komentoihin ekan jälkeen. Tuloksena vähemmän charge of doomeja 60cm päästä ja kun ei ole kesyä lohikäärmettä tukena ei ne chargetkaan ole niin pahoja(pääosin koska tappioita tuppaa tulemaan).

Erikoissäännöt tekevät armeijoista sellaisia kuin niiden olettaisikin. Legion sääntö teki roomalaisistani eliittiä joka pysäytti systemaattisesti brittien rynnäkköjä kerta toisensa jälkeen kunnes tappiot heikensivät heitä liikaa. Britit taas tulivat isoissa kasoissa ja niinkauan kuin taistelu sujui niin hyvin menee mutta heti jos taistelu kääntyi turpiin tuli. Ensimmäiset rynnäköt ehjiin roomalais linjoihin olivatkin siis kuollettavia kun ensimmäiset rynnäköt kilpistyivät kauhistuttaviin tappioihin(ja mietittiin jo että onko roomalaiset liian hyviä. Onneksi osoittautui että ei nekään loputtomiin tuota kestä ja määrällä ON laatua tässä pelissä).

WMA on siis mielestäni WMF:stä selvästi parannettu versio. Itseasiassa huolimatta siitä että INHOAN warmaster fantasya rakastan warmaster ancienttia. Perussysteemi sama molemmissa mutta WMA:ta paranneltu säännöiltä hiukkasen ja erityisesti listoista joten siinä missä WMF on tylsää ratsuväen helppoa jyräämistä WMA on HAUSKA pelata.
Suurin kysymysmerkki omalta osaltani on vain skaala - hienoa 10 mm:ia saa runsaasti, 6 mm suhteen valikoimaa on vähemmän ja hinta ainakin aloituspakettien suhteen on huomattavasti suurempi Baccuksella verrattuna esim Pendrakenin 10 mm:siin. Sitäpaitsi vaikka WMMA on pistehinnassa skaalattu siten, että pelit onnistuvat muinaisiakin vastaan, muinaispuolella taitaa olla enemmän vastustajia. Jotenkin tuntuisi typerältä, jos tuleva samuraiarmeijani mättäisi vain antiikin roomalaisia tai galleja vastaan...
Itsellä skaala oli helppo ratkaisu. Pidän 6mm figuista joilla saa enemmän figuja samalle alueelle. Pöytätilaa ei ole mahdottomiin ja standit näyttää upeilta kun niissä on rutosti porukkaa. Esmes yksiköissäni on nyt 72 legioonalaista jaettuna kolmeen standiin. 10mm figuilla joutuisin tuota leikkaamaan reippaasti. Plus IMO 10mm figuja on reippaasti hankalampaa maalata. Ja kun baccuksen hinnatkaan ei ole kalliita mikäs tässä on. En ole pendrakenin figuista koskaan pahemmin perustanut.