Build-as-you-play

[Tazidan]

Olisiko ketään ketkä haluaisivat keskustella Warhammer-matsin aikana rakennettavista rakennuksista?
Tarkoituksena olisi siis änkeä Warhammeriin Age of Empire, Empire Earth, Command & Conquer ja tietenkin Dawn of War tyyppinen rakentelu.

Jos vaikka peli alkaisi vain parilla rakentajaryhmällä, jotka (jostakin?) saisivat resursseja ja rakentaisivat Barrackseja, Fortresseja ja Temppeleitä, jotka sitten ajan myötä tuottaisivat sodankäyntiin tarkoitettuja joukkoja.

Tämänlainen peli varmaankin kestää sitten useamman kuin 6 vuoroa, joten voisi verrata Apocalypsen peleihin.

Helpompaa tietenkin olisi pistää pystyyn tavallinen hex-kampanja, mutta jos tämä voisi olla vaihtelua ja ehkä "realistisempi" versio.

[Nazgúl]

Onhan tuommoinen käynyt mielessä, mutta menee liian vaikeaksi toteuttaa miniatyyreillä, ettei ole ajatusta pitemmälle jaksanut viedä... Jos joku keksii kuitenkin helpon keinon pelata tällaisia, niin mielelläni lukisin ideoita.

[Kaapelikala]

Jos systeemin jollain tavalla saa toimivaksi (Warhammer ei tähän tapaukseen sellainen ole), voi tuossa olla jotain ideaa. Warhammer valitettavasti on "mennään lähelle ja annetaan turpaan aikarajan salliessa"-tyylinen peli eikä siinä rakentelu sellaisenaan onnistu jo mittakaavan vuoksi. Jossain Epicissä/Warmasterissa tuo vielä voisi toimiakin, koska napit ovat pienempiä, joten matkatkin ovat samaa luokkaa.

Jonain kampanjasysteeminä vuoronaksu voisi toimia.

Alla ajatuksia reaalinaksu vs. vuoronaksu pöydällä:

Reaaliaikanaksu vuoropohjaisena kuulostaa ainakin itsestäni väärältä lähestymistavalta. Reaaliaikanaksuissa on omat sääntönsä, jotka vain eivät sovellu Warhammerin pelimekaniikkaan. Joku vuoropohjainen strategiasysteemi voidaan muuttaa pöytäpeliksi huomattavasti helpommin (ks. Civilization, Alpha Centauri, Space Empires jne.).

Reaaliaikanaksuissa (C&C, WC, DoW, AoE...) tapahtuu asioita kaiken aikaa eikä vain tiettyjen aikarajojen sisällä. Joukot liikkuvat yhtä aikaa, resursseja tippuu jatkuvasti, aika kuluu kaiken aikaa. Vastaavanlaista systeemiä jos rupeaa tekemään pöytäpelinä, tarvitaan tolkuttomasti tiimalaseja sun muita vastaavia vempeleitä. Ei kuulosta ainakaan itsestäni kauhean helpolta toteuttaa. Kuinka esim. valvottaisiin juurikin noiden aikojen paikkansapitävyyttä?

Vuoropohjaiset naksut vuorostaan siirtyvät pöydälle kutakuinkin suoraan. Esim. Civilization (ei lautapeli) voidaan muuttaa pöytäpeliksi erittäin helposti. Otetaan PC-versio, kirjoitetaan säännöt ylös, tehdään lauta ja nappulat ja pelataan. Taistelut toki voi käydä taktisina, mutta tällöin vaaditaan tasapainoisia yksiköitä, ettei tule horror-tulvia tms. Myös kampanjasysteemeinä nämä toimisivat erittäin herkullisesti.

Lopetan. Liian vähäinen uni ei tee hyvää kirjoituslaadulle...

[Tazidan]

No jos yhden pikkurakennuksen rakentamiseen esim menisi yksi vuoro... Suuremmat sitten veisi 2 tai 3.
Jos resursseja saisi tietyn verran vuorossa ja lisäisi sitten yhden vuoron phaseihin semmoisen upkeep-phasen (movement, shooting ja assault phasen lisäksi). Se olisi suoraa lainausta omasta hex-campaignista, joka tällä hetkellä on meneillään.

[Z7-852]

Enpä usko että joukkojen rakentelua ja käyttöä voi mitenkään yhdistää 40k sääntöjen puitteissa. On epic säännötkin sellaiset etteivät tälläistä oikein tue.

Parhaiten jos lautapeliä tekisin niin ratkaisisin asian seuraavasti.
Teksin useita kortti pakkoja (ainakin 3 erilaista), jotka sisältäisivät pelissä käytettävät elementit. Eli tässä tapauksessa Maasto, rakennukset ja joukot.
Pelin alussa pöydälle tehtäisiin iso ruudukko (jos kortit olisivat hexan muotoisia niin voisi tehdä hexa ruudukon). Jonne jaetaan joka ruutuun tiettyjä maasto elementtejä. Tämän jälkeen pelin sääntöjen puitteissa pelaajat voisivat lisätä rakennuksia ja joukkojaan ruutuihin pelaamalla sinne kortteja.

Mitään tekemistä figu pelien kanssa.

[Tazidan]

Parhaiten jos lautapeliä tekisin niin ratkaisisin asian seuraavasti.
Teksin useita kortti pakkoja (ainakin 3 erilaista), jotka sisältäisivät pelissä käytettävät elementit. Eli tässä tapauksessa Maasto, rakennukset ja joukot.
Pelin alussa pöydälle tehtäisiin iso ruudukko (jos kortit olisivat hexan muotoisia niin voisi tehdä hexa ruudukon). Jonne jaetaan joka ruutuun tiettyjä maasto elementtejä. Tämän jälkeen pelin sääntöjen puitteissa pelaajat voisivat lisätä rakennuksia ja joukkojaan ruutuihin pelaamalla sinne kortteja.

Tulee jotenkin vaan mieleen The Settlers of Catan... :D

[Z7-852]

Tulee jotenkin vaan mieleen The Settlers of Catan... :D

Catan on puhtaasti nopan heittoa ja resurssi korttien mätkimistä. Erittäin hauskaa hupia sinällään ja hyvä peli, mutta kyllä minusta asian voisi toteuttaa jotenkin monimutkaisemmin.
Pelasin aikoinani yhden pelin jotain civilization tyyppistä peliä (en vain millään muista nimeä), missä rakenneltiin valtakuntaa korteilla ja hoidettiin resursseja. Suhteellisen simppeli resurssien hallinta peli, mutta silti erittäin taktinen ja mielenkiintoinen.

[Mysterous]

Vaikka pidänkin RTS:iä helvetin työkaluna (ja realismia mokomat eivät sotaleikkeihin tuo pätkääkään) niin tuossa nyt Epic 40K Battle Biblesta kopypastatut RTS kampanja säännöt, jos hieman antavat ideaa.

Koodi: Valitse kaikki

Appendix A: RTS Campaign Rules

WarCraft.  Command & Conquer.  And, if you have a really good memory, Dune II: The Building of a Dynasty.  These are all popular real-time strategy (RTS) computer games, enjoyed by gamers everywhere.  If you’ve played at least one of these games, and have played Epic 40,000, you’ve probably asked the following question:

“Hey; here we have a bunch of really cool-looking miniatures that look like the tanks and stuff from <your favorite RTS>.  Aren’t there rules to capture the cool stuff from both types of game?

If you’ve never played an RTS, go get yourself a $10 copy of Command & Conquer right now, and continue reading this section when you’ve played it long enough for your mouse hand to go completely cold from lack of circulation.  If you’ve played one of these games and are an Epic fan, and still haven’t asked yourself this question, then you might want to consider asking it to yourself right now.  Go ahead; we’ll wait.

As far as the legal stuff goes, the following rules are not sanctioned by Games Workshop and are purely the construct of the compilers of this BattleBible.  This means that we have the copyright on them, but that shouldn’t mean that much because we’re not likely to try to get money off of it—unless you’d like to help us out (hint, hint).  Obviously all of these rules are optional, in their beta stages, and when it comes right down to it, just an opinion on how things might be cool.  So feel free to customize them to taste, on the condition that if your rules work better than those listed here, you have to email us them.


Purpose
The Epic 40,000 RTS Campaign Rules try to capture all of the fun and suspense of building up massive armies and impregnable fortresses by collecting resources.  The biggest change to the standard Epic 40,000 rules set is the inclusion of Structures, and the system of Unit Construction that may be used.  In an RTS Campaign, your objective is most often to completely eliminate your opponent(s) by building up an army over time.

Changes to Turn Sequence


Structures
In WarCraft, it was the Town Hall, the Stables, and the Barracks; in Command & Conquer, it was the Construction Yards and Power Plants.  Structures are the permanent objects you create to help you get things done—most often to create more units or different types of units.

To make things really look good, you’ll need to model your own Structures so that you can place them on the battleboard when they are created—but feel free to use counters, bits of card with the name of the structure written on them, etc.  Maybe even miniature bases from Warhammer 40,000!

Once you build a Structure, you place it somewhere on the board.  The Structure will remain where you have placed it until it is destroyed by sustaining enough damage or you decide to dismantle it (for example, if you no longer needed it and it was taking up Resources (17)).  Structures all have the following characteristics: Size, Build, Damage Capacity (DC), Maintenance (Maint), Notes, and Prerequisites (PReq).

Size
This is the size of the Structure when it is constructed and placed on the battleboard.  It is usually given as a two-dimensional figure—the height of the Structure shouldn’t be a factor that much, especially in Epic 40,000.
Build
The amount of Resources required to construct the Structure.
Dmg Capacity/Shields
The number of hits the Structure can sustain before it is destroyed, and the amount of Shields the Structure has.  These function just like the War Engine characteristics of the same names.
Maint
The amount of Resources you must spend every turn so that the Structure will continue to function normally.  Not all Structures have this characteristic.
Notes
Usually, Structures have more then purely cosmetic value—otherwise you wouldn’t build them!  The extra abilities that the Structure affords its controller are listed here.  For example, a Heavy Vehicle Factory would likely have a list of the models it can Construct.
PreReq
Quantum leaps aren’t commonplace, not even in the 41st millenium.  In order to build most Structures, you’ll have to already have at least one other Structure on the battleboard.  Some Structures require that you have certain vehicles in play, or that you control a certain area, etc.

Resources
Factories and tanks don’t just pop out of thin air; it takes a great deal of metal, gunpowder, electricity, and raw labor-hours to craft such complex items.  Dune II used a single resource, the spice Melange, to represent all of this; WarCraft used two, gold and wood.  The more types of resources a game has, the more realistic it tends to be—but the more complex it is, too.  Since Epic 40,000 is complex enough a game already, these campaign rules use a single resource, as well—called Resources.  You gain Resources four ways.

Simple Presence
You gain some Resources simply by having a military presence on the BattleBoard.  This represents the fact that the Emperor wouldn’t likely leave the 27th Catachan Artillery regiment stranded on a remote outpost without some degree of support.  To some degree, the amount of Simple Presence Resources you gain each turn are based on the amount of military presence you have—in other words, the more tanks and infantry and War Engines you have on the battleboard, the more support the Imperium would give you.

At the beginning of your turn, tally all of the military units (not Structures) you have on the board.  Divide by 5; you receive this many Resources from your supply lines.

Resource Generators
Some Structures and even some new military units are capable of generating Resources every turn.  This ability will be noted in the Notes characteristic of the Structure’s profile; unless there are specific rules or conditions for the Resources’ generation, it will be listed as Generator-n, where n is the number of Resources each of the Structures gives you each turn.

Scrap
Everything has an upkeep cost, and sometimes it’s just not worth it.  It’s a wise commander that knows when a unit has outlived its usefulness.  At the end of your turn, you may Scrap units or Structures for salvage, gaining resources by recycling the parts, personnel, energy, etc. reclaimed by its destruction.  If you Scrap a Structure, you gain Resources equal to one-quarter the Build characteristic of the Structure, rounded up.  If you Scrap a unit (e.g., tank, infantry model, War Engine), you gain Resources equal to one-tenth the Points value of the unit… not a very good return on investment, but an way for the desperate commander to recoup Resources stored in unhelpful form.

Capture
Not all war is pure destruction—the good commander knows it’s better to use the enemy’s resources against him rather than simply lay waste to them.  The Capture rules are optional and are a bit involved, but not that difficult to understand with the examples provided.

You may Capture an enemy Structure by moving an infantry model onto the Structure.  The change in control of the Structure takes one turn to complete—the old personnel must be… downsized (most often by bolter fire).  The infantry model which took over the Structure is removed, but does not count as a casualty—it is assumed that the personnel in the squad were needed either to crew the Structure or to keep guard on those who do.

Of course, change-overs of staff aren’t instantaneous, and it’s unlikely that the existing personnel will be very cooperative.  To represent this, you don’t gain control of the Structure immediately—for one whole turn, it is effectively neutral.  This means that it counts as neither your Structure or your opponent’s.  If your opponent is able to move any of his own models onto the Structure in that time, or if at the end of the “up for grabs” time the closest models to the Structure are not yours, her troops wrest control away from yours and she gains control of the Structure with no penalty.  

If you keep control of the Structure for one whole turn, you may choose to gain Resources or to take them away from your opponent.  This represents the ability to scour the captured Structure’s computer banks, records, interrogate the personnel, etc. in order to gain knowledge that could be used against your opponent.  Whether you choose to gain Resources yourself or to subtract them from your opponent’s Storage total, the amount of Resources involved is equal to half the Build characteristic of the captured Structure, rounded down.

Note that if the Structure captured is one that normally isn’t available to the army that captured it—a Space Marine Geneseed Library captured by Orks, for example; or virtually anything Tyranid captured by any other army—then the side which captured it is not able to gain any benefits from it, aside from the Resource bonus and denying it from the enemy.

An example: Vanessa moves her Gretchin mob onto Roger’s Sentry Tower, capturing it.  She removes the Gretchin—perhaps placing them on top of the Tower to represent that it’s “up for grabs” now—and ends her turn.

Roger takes his turn as normal, and tries to get an infantry squad of his own onto the Tower to reclaim it, but Vanessa’s forces guard it well and manage to fend the enemy off.  At the beginning of Vanessa’s turn, the Tower becomes hers (1 below).  The Imperial Sentry Tower costs 5 Resources to build, so Vanessa can either gain 2 Resources or destroy 2 of Roger’s Resources.

Continuing the example, let’s say that Vanessa ends her turn with a smug grin on her face at having so easily tricked Roger.  Roger, however, was able to build some more forces, and sends them after Vanessa’s guards.  It’s a close battle, and though Roger is left with just two infantry models left, he destroys all of her guards and manages to move one of the infantry models onto the Tower by the end of his turn (2, above). The Tower is now “up for grabs”.  Vanessa starts her turn, and she only has one infantry model within striking distance of the Tower—so she sends it after Roger’s other infantry model standing guard.  She destroys Roger’s model—and though she wasn’t able to move onto the Tower (3 above), a quick check shows that her infantry model is the closest to the Tower; the Tower becomes hers again.

Imperium Structures
The following is a list of structures available to Imperium (Space Marines, Imperial Guard) forces.

Generators
Solar Cell Array
Size	Build	DC	Shields	Maint	PreReq
30cm x 30cm	2	1	-	-	-
Generator-1.

Solar Cell Farm
Size	Build	DC	Shields	Maint	PreReq
60cm x 60cm	5	1	-	-	-
Generator-3.

Ore Processing Plant
Size	Build	DC	Shields	Maint	PreReq
30cm x 30cm	12	1	-	-	-
Generator-5.

Unit Production
Barracks
Size	Build	DC	Shields	Maint	PreReq
30cm x 30cm	10	3	-	1	-
Allows the production of Basic Infantry models.

Elite Barracks
Size	Build	DC	Shields	Maint	PreReq
30cm x 30cm	20	3	-	2	Barracks
Allows the production of Advanced Infantry models.
Airfield
Size	Build	DC	Shields	Maint	PreReq
30cm x 90cm	15	3	-	2	-
Flyers may take off from, land at, and be refuelled at an Airfield.  Because the Airfield is primarily just a stopping point, there is only a 50% chance per Flyer per turn that the Airfield can rearm a Flyer.

Airbase
Size	Build	DC	Shields	Maint	PreReq
60cm x 120cm	25	4	-	4	-
Flyers may take off from, land at, be refuelled at, and rearm at an Airbase.

Naval Bay
Size	Build	DC	Shields	Maint	PreReq
60cm x 60cm	30	8	-	6	-
A Naval Bay may Build Flyer units.  If it is built next to an Airbase or Airfield, or if it is connected to one of these Structures via a Road, the Naval Bay may also be used to Repair damaged Flyers.

Defense
Missile Silo
Size	Build	DC	Shields	Maint	PreReq
20cm x 20cm	25	1	-	1	-
Any time during your turn, you may spent 2RC to launch a missile from the Silo.  The missile has a range of 30cm and is treated as a Firepower-2 attack on its target.

Rocket Tower
Size	Build	DC	Shields	Maint	PreReq
20cm x 20cm	35	2	Force-1	2	-
Any time during your turn, you may launch up to three missiles from the Tower.  Each missile launched costs you 1RC, has a range of 30cm and is treated as a Firepower-2 attack on its target.

Sentry Tower
Size	Build	DC	Shields	Maint	PreReq
30cm x 30cm	25	3	-	1	-
Any time during your turn, you may spent 2RC to launch a missile from the Silo.  The missile has a range of 30cm and is treated as a Firepower-2 attack on its target. 

[Ernuuu]

Heh. Itekin ooon tällästa aikoinaan miettiny, mutta innostus lopahti, kun tajusin miten hankalaksi homma menisi...